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As a bank that focuses on business, we work with business leaders all day, every day. We have a front row seat to what's working and what has potential. The First Business Bank podcast is dedicated to sharing insights to help you work better, smarter, and faster to achieve your goals. Let's get into the show.
Mark Meloy:
Hello. I'm Mark Meloy, CEO of First Business Bank. Welcome to the First Business Bank podcast. Today, we're talking about managing a remote workforce, and how you can be more comfortable and confident with it. My guests today are leaders, who have been managing remote teams for some time. And they're ready to share their insights. They're each going to introduce themselves before we get our conversation started. Tracey, we'll start with you.
Tracey Hulick:
Thanks, Mark. I'm Tracey Hulick. I am the senior loan operations manager. And I've been a remote manager since early 2018.
Mark Meloy:
Dave?
Dave Seiler:
And I'm Dave Seiler. I'm the chief operating officer for First Business Bank. And I've been with the bank for five years and have been managing remote employees ever since.
Mark Meloy:
Excellent. Well, let's get started with the conversation. Tracey, I'm going to start with you. Talk about difference in managing in-office, fully remote teams, and then hybrids, and how that's changed over time.
Tracey Hulick:
That's a big question to start with and I have had experience with all three. So, this is great. Managing people in person, it's, I think, a great way for a manager to start. That's how I started, was everyone was in the same building. And there was something reassuring about being able to see everybody's faces, know where they're sitting, you know, have those side conversations if you're both at the water cooler or getting coffee. It makes it easy to get to know people. It also makes it easy to, to see situations arising that could be of concern before someone tells you. You can see it with your own two eyes, and you hear it with your own two ears when you're in the office. So, for any starting manager, I would definitely suggest it's easiest to start managing when you can see all the people. And then I went to a hybrid mode. I think it must've been about five years ago. One of our top loan processors, her husband was relocating, obviously, taking the family with. They were opening a restaurant.
Tracey Hulick:
And rather than lose her because she is a, a great employee. She'd been with the bank for quite a while at that point. We decided to let her work remotely and really and to really start with that. We never considered having remote employees at that point. And with that, we were grateful that she already knew what she was doing. She knew the expectations. And so it was just more frequent check-ins with her over the phone. And that worked well for her. And then as most people know, in early 2020, everybody went remote for a while. And that was different in that not just everybody being remote, but also having a level of uncertainty with that remoteness, not knowing how long they would be remote.
Tracey Hulick:
So, it was a lot of coaching and checking in, "How are you doing as a person? How are you doing with work? Are there any hurdles in the way of you getting your work done that I can help you with?" And so it's a lot more proactive, intentional communication with that. Um, but overall, it really made our team a lot stronger. And they got more intentional with the way they communicate with me and with each other. That has proven to be really helpful now that people are getting back in the office.
Mark Meloy:
Dave, you put a blog together about this very topic a while ago. Um, so, what are your tips for building and sustaining a team, their morale, when you're managing people that are remote?
Dave Seiler:
Yeah. I think the first thing ... And, and I wrote that blog before the pandemic. And if I would write it again today, I think there would be some differences because I think we've learned a lot during this. But I would say the first thing is, you know, you have to create a, a relationship and develop a relationship with the people that you're managing. And that's a little harder when you're remote. When I started doing it, managing remote folks, I'd spend a lot of time traveling and spend time with the people, get the teams together as much you can in person and have business, working on business time, and then informal relationship building time. For me, that's how it starts. You build a relationship, and you build trust. And then it just makes the, kind of the remote aspects of managing folks much easier. After that, it's just, it's frequent check-ins and being available. I think it's really important that both the manager and the employee are consistently available and responsive. I think that, that goes a long way in making the relationship work.
Mark Meloy:
Great. There's a lot of information in all that. So, this next question that I wanted to ask, I'm going to ask you both. And I'll start with you, Tracey. And so as a manager, how do you develop a culture of trust surrounding remote work? Because one of the things that I've read a lot about is that ... Especially hybrid group where, it, it, it's, it seems like it's more difficult obviously for the remote employee because sometimes, they're going feel left out or they, they might feel left out or left behind, or their opportunities for advancement are less. How do you build trust around that as a manager with your team?
Tracey Hulick:
Yeah. I think the biggest thing for our group is that we have to set really, really clear expectations. And even starting early, thinking we had all the expectations set about workload, about responsiveness, about including others in certain things in meetings. We had to adjust our sales quite a bit along the way because we would realize, "Oh, well, there's a gap here. How do I make up for this? Oh, it's so-and-so's birthday. They had a impromptu get-together with cupcakes. But this person up in the north of Wisconsin wasn't involved." So, it's a, it's an adjustment over time. But being really clear, specifically about the work, "You must pick things up in this amount of time. You answer your phone. When someone's calling you, you use video when someone's calling you." So, that has been really helpful. But then also, remembering to give praise to people doing things right because just because someone's working 1000 miles away in their basement, you still want them to feel seen.
Tracey Hulick:
So, we also wanna make sure, "Oh, you picked up that request in 10 minutes." Send an IM, say, "Hey, I saw how quickly you picked that up. Thank you. That really helps a lot." So, you really wanna praise these things that we're seeing with people that are remote, so they keep doing it. They know, even though they're far away, I'm seeing what they're doing. And I'm appreciating what they're doing. And doing that builds trust a lot faster in that culture than pinpointing, "Oh, it was two hours and two minutes before you picked up this ticket. It should've been two hours." That doesn't ... It gets a point across, but it's not always gonna bring the best out of that employee. So, praising the good things that you see when you see them.
Mark Meloy:
Dave, anything to add?
Dave Seiler:
Yeah. I think a, a couple things come to mind. I mean, I think remote work is so much more prevalent now than it was even five or 10 years ago. A lot of us who grew up in a work environment where there was not a lot of remote work, it takes some adjustment because I think the natural reaction is for people to think, "Well, if, if I don't see it happening, it's not happening." So, you know, I think the responsiveness that Tracey was talking about, Be available. That kind of helps get over the hurdle of, "Well, is this person really working or not working, uh, when they're remote?" Which is an issue that has come up. And I think the other thing as it relates to the inclusiveness and making sure that remote employees are part of the team, I think the use of video has helped that a lot in meetings. And I think when you're, when you have meetings when there are attendees in person and remote, I think as a manager, being very intentional about involving and engaging the people who are remote, um, helps a lot. I mean, I, I think it helps remind the whole team that, "Hey, these folks are remote, but they're important members of the team. And we wanna hear what they have to say. And we want their input."
Mark Meloy:
So, communication is obviously very important when you're not in the same building. What are your best strategies for promoting two-way communication on your teams. Tracey, I'll start with you again.
Tracey Hulick:
Yeah. I think along the lines of what Dave just mentioned about the importance of video and the expectation that if we're talking, whether it's in a big group meeting or one-on-one, I want to see your face. And you're going to see mine. I also think communication with this, it has to also include like, the more human personal communication with them too. I make a lot more notes than I ever used to about things, "So-and-so's son has a track meet." Or, you know, "Someone has a followup appointment for something that's important to them." I write these things down, and I put it in my calendar. So, then we are talking about work things and things that need to be done or creating things together. I also make sure to include that personal piece. And anytime I do that, it always ends up becoming a really good two-way street conversation where it's more than just the topic at hand. And it helps build those relationships. And so being more intentional with that and writing more notes has been a really effective communication strategy as well as building the relationships with the people that I work with.
Mark Meloy:
Yeah. I, I found what you just said the best piece for me when I was both working remote and talking to people, or managing people remotely, is the, the importance of writing things down and keeping ... Because you don't have those interim opportunities as much for conversation or check-ins, or natural updates. And so notes seem to be the way I got through COVID in managing situations, for sure. Dave, how about you?
Dave Seiler:
Yeah. I think I would add to that. When employees are working in the same space, there are a lot of opportunities for informal communication. And that's when you spend a lot of time talking about what folks are doing outside of work, families, other things that are important to them. I think before the pandemic, when video wasn't as common, it was much harder to learn things like that about remote employees. Since we started with video, it's been much easier, I think, to learn about the family lives and so forth. People have kids coming in and out of the picture, pets coming in and out of the picture. You see things around their house. So, you just learn a lot more about that person, which really helps with the relationship and therefore, the communication.
Mark Meloy:
So, this next question isn't so much about managing remote workforce. It's more to do with sort of being a remote worker yourself. And Tracey, you wrote a blog a while ago about helpful hints or helpful thoughts, coaching ideas that you had about being a remote worker. So, as you look at any job and the environment around it whether you're in an office or you're at home, what are some of your best strategies and thoughts as it relates to staying on task when you're working remotely?
Tracey Hulick:
Yeah. I think ... I mean, a few things I could say to that is the ability to control our own environment. There's a lot of things that we can't do in an office setting that we can do at home. Like, you work with your shoes on at home. You can have a scented candle burning when you're at home. And you know, a lot of people that work in cubes, at home, you can close the door. And so doing those kind of things, maybe having some quiet music on in the background, you can make your own environment to figure out how you do your best work. And then also, thinking about your best work, when I have what I call deep work kind of tasks, if it's something really strategic, I like to get out of my four walls. And I will actually walk to a park. And I bring my laptop and my coffee. And I sit under this tree. And there's something about changing your location and also just being in nature to get your mind to think differently than if you were in the office.
Tracey Hulick:
I've had some of my best workdays and biggest mental breakthroughs in this job when I would take my laptop and go sit outside with the mountain and the view in front of me. And there's something about being able to do that or allowed to do that. And I encourage people to do that. If you're trying to differently, it helps to get somewhere different. And you can do that remotely really easily.
Mark Meloy:
Dave, can you speak to your experiences with a hybrid team, some working in the office and some remote, and the challenges and the strategies differ in that situation?
Dave Seiler:
Yeah. So, we've had that a little bit, in some of our specialty lending areas, in particular, where we get talent from, really, all over the United States. But we still would have small groups of people in one of our main office locations. I think a couple things were important. One, we were pretty intentional about getting the whole teams together in person several times a year. And I think that was really helpful because people talk with each other over the phone or on video during the year, but they really enjoy getting in front of each other and just really strengthening that relationship over time. Again, and we've mentioned before, it's a, it's a lot of making sure that no matter where an employee is located, that they're included in the discussions. And really, you sometimes, have to go out of your way to assign tasks to people who aren't in front of you. Sometimes, it's really easy to say, "Well, the first person I see is Tracey. I'm gonna give Tracey this project to work on."
Dave Seiler:
You really have to think about, "All right. I'm going to call whoever it might be who's in a remote location and have them work on a project, and have them work, oftentimes with someone who's in the office." It just helps build the team cohesion, I think.
Mark Meloy:
It seems our company experience has been that video calls really add to the effectiveness of remote communication. Is the culture on your team such that everyone uses video as the default? And is this an expectation you set with your employees from the start? Tracey, I'll go to you.
Tracey Hulick:
Well, it's an expectation for our, our regular meeting. So, we have a monthly department meeting that's everyone. And there are meetings that are just for processors every week, and then just for own staff every week. And in those, it's an expectation your video's on. For our department meeting, I put it right on the agenda, "You will be sharing video. Be prepared." If someone doesn't have it on, I actually bring it up and say, "Can you turn your video on?" So I don't let that stuff slide. When it's phone calls, it's strongly encouraged that you don't. But I do give people the benefit of, you know ... They might be just having a really rough day. I'll be vulnerable. I was that person once.
Tracey Hulick:
And Allen MacAfeewas calling me. And I said, "Can this be my one time I don't share video?" And he said, "That's okay." So, case by case, it's okay. But as a general rule for calls too, we use the video. And it's been really helpful, especially 'cause we have some newer folks too. So, it's made it good to see their faces and get to know them better that way.
Mark Meloy:
Yeah. I had a series of meetings with people that were from outside the company, but they were all on the same platform, Teams, in this case. One of the participants in this series of meetings more often did not turn video on. And it really bothered me that everybody else in the meeting was on video, and this person chose not to. It wasn't the same as it being somebody that you work with where .... And especially if it's someone that reports to you where you can kind of set the expectation and know what it is. And so it was, uh, you know ... It wasn't my meeting. I was a participant. But it was the same, the same person doing it. And it was really ... I felt like I was ... That we were all missing something because that individual wasn't participating in kind of the same form, the same way that everybody else was. So, there is something to do it in terms of, uh the culture of the conversation, so to speak.
Tracey Hulick:
Yeah. And in a situation like that, Mark, if it's a bunch of people sharing and one person not, then you can't help but wonder, "Well, what are they doing? Why aren't they turning their camera on?"
Mark Meloy:
Right.
Mark Meloy:
You, you know, from my experience, it seems easy to contact an employee when you need something. And it's easy to forget to simply connect just to see how they're doing and to check in on them more informally like you might do if they were in the office with you. Do you guys struggle with that? Or is this something that, that you really work on? Have you developed techniques to be better at it? Dave, I'll start with you on that one.
Dave Seiler:
Yeah. That is a struggle for me. You know, I think you have a tendency to get busy in your day. And you've got all these things that you want to get done. And when you're in an office with someone, you're walking, you're walking around um, and you see somebody. And it triggers a thought, "Hey, I need to have a few words with Mark." Or whoever it might be. When you're remote, you just don't have that reminder. And what I found works for me ... I don't have a very organized process. But I do kind of make a mental note, "I haven't to somebody talked to somebody for a little bit. I'll call them." Even if you, I give them a call when I'm driving home from work or whatever it might be, do, do what you can to check in with folks.
Dave Seiler:
And you know, writing it down, I've done that on occasion when I really have to get in touch with somebody, and I haven't heard from them for a while. But I think making a list and writing it down would probably be a bit more effective than just trying to remember.
Mark Meloy:
Tracey, how about you?
Tracey Hulick:
Yeah. There is something I started doing, um, maybe halfway through last year. And I call them my coffee catch-up calls. And so I schedule them pretty early in the morning, so for central time, about 8:30. And it'll be with someone. And it's not to talk about work unless they want to, but just to catch up. If your hair's still messy, that's fine. If you're drinking your coffee, that's fine. And we just talk and catch up for half an hour. And it's been a lot of fun. And I do it actually more often with counterparts in other areas of the organization than I do with my own employees. Those relationships, those counterparts in other areas, are really important. And those would be the easiest ones for me to not pay attention to. So, those are the ones I prioritize. And I tend to do those calls, ideally, twice a month, sometimes, more often. I have my second one on Friday for the month. But that's worked really well for me.
Mark Meloy:
Yeah. So, setting clear expectations seems to be one of the primary strategies that we've touched on in many different ways. But what does that mean for your teams? Tracey, start with you.
Tracey Hulick:
Yeah. For my team, the clear expectations, it's a lot about timing. You know, we're loan operations. Requests come in. They have to get taken care of. They need to be reviewed, need to be funded, reviewed on the system, filed away. Everything is pretty important. And so we have set expectations about timing of things, quality of things when you're giving it to the next group. I think that it's a job that's easy to quantify in that way. It's easy to set those expectations. Um, the more challenging expectations come with, you know, kindness in your emails or, or really like, you know, bettering the ball and having great detail when you hand things off. Those are the nuanced things that we set expectation, but it's a little bit softer of an expectation. In terms of the actual work, it's really about timing, quality standards and really paying attention to the client experience and taking care of our internal customers, whether you're working from home or in the office. And so it's pretty clearcut for us.
Dave Seiler:
Yeah. I think um, clear expectations are important whether you're in the office or remote. Right? And um, you know, I think one of the things that I try to do is have good detailed one-on-one meetings when I sit down with, um, the folks that report to me, um, really walk through an agenda, so you don't miss any topics, and make sure you cover what you need to cover. One of the things that I like to do with folks is say "So, what are your priorities? What are your three to five priorities for the next 90 days?" And talk, you know, talk about those types of things so we get on the same page. And we both are aligned in what the priorities should be.
Mark Meloy:
Excellent. Okay. In our opening, we talked about the fact that both of you have managed and worked with remote employees prior to the pandemic. So, as we, we sit sort of on the other end of the pandemic, what's changed? I mean, what, what have we learned in the process kind of pre-pandemic versus post-pandemic? Dave?
Dave Seiler:
Well, during the pandemic, I think it was a great equalizer in many instances. We had situations where we had groups that had offices in multiple locations plus remote employees. And all of a sudden, everyone's a remote employee. And it really broke down some barriers, I think, between, well, this is the, let's say, the Madison office against the Kansas City office. And you know, are the offices treated the same? And do they have the same expectations? All of that went away, I think, during the pandemic when everyone was remote. I think in many cases, those teams became much closer than they were in the past because everyone's equal. Right? Everyone's got their own little box on the, on a video screen during the Teams meeting. I think the other thing that happened is people reached out to members from other locations.
Dave Seiler:
Instead of just reaching out for help from someone from their team, they reached out to someone in a different location for help and, and built relationships with other members of the team. So, I think that's one thing. As we come back and more people are in the office, I think we're, we're trying some different things because of the fact that it was great. We have credit committees and other meetings where we have people in a conference room now. And there's video of the whole conference room. Everyone's face is very small in the conference room. Right? Except for the remote employees, who are showing up really big on the screen. You can see their facial expressions. And, and you can really see them much better. What we're trying as we come back to office ... It's great to be in the same room as other people during a meeting. But there are still the, the employees on the video screen.
Dave Seiler:
What we're trying to ... Again, level that playing field a little bit, is to get together in the conference room and still have your laptop open so that remote employees can see your face and see your facial expression, and really see who's talking as opposed to just seeing a small, little dot on a, on a screen from a conference room. So, I think that is working a little bit. We're still working through some of the technical glitches that can happen from time to time. But you know, I think we'll continue to learn and evolve from the lessons that we learn during the pandemic.
Tracey Hulick:
Oh, I'm with what Dave said. And one of my biggest takeaways as a manager and this just about post-pandemic environment we're in is having everybody working remotely, it really allowed us to see who thrived working at home, who was happier, who was more engaged. Everybody did what was expected and, and did even more, you know, with the two rounds of PPP and things like that. So, everybody did their share. But there's certain people that, I think, are just more wired to be more successful and happier working from home. I think I'm one of those people. And now that we're coming back to the office, have this ability to stop and think, "Okay. Who really thrived at home? Who's happier there? Well, let's do a 60% schedule where they're 60% at home, 40% in the office." Because then, they get the best of both worlds. We get to see them in person. And for most of their time, they get to be home in the environment that they do their best work from.
Tracey Hulick:
And I think it's important for us to remember that when we're deciding where to put people and when is to stop and think about, "Where do people do their best work?" 'Cause now, we can ask that question and create these customized ways of managing people so they do their best. So, that was a great outcome of the pandemic.
Mark Meloy:
Thanks for that feedback. Well, Tracey and Dave, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences with our audience today. And to you, our audience, thanks for listening to the conversation. We hope you found it interesting. And there were ideas there that you can apply as you manage your remote workforce. Let us know if there are other topics you'd like to learn more about, and join us next on the First Business Bank podcast.
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