Speaker 1:
As a bank that focuses on business, we work with business leaders all day, every day. We have a front row seat to what's working, and what has potential. The First Business Bank podcast is dedicated to sharing insights to help you work better, smarter, and faster to achieve your goals.

Mark Meloy:
Hello, I'm Mark Meloy, CEO of First Business Bank. I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the First Business Bank podcast. Today, we're covering First Business Bank's 2021 economic survey, and its results, with special focus on northeast Wisconsin.

Mark Meloy:
The executive survey has been part of First Business Bank for more than 15 years. The survey results are particularly relevant at this time due to the obvious implications of COVID. But also they help answer the question every year from business owners, of what are other business owners thinking and doing?

Mark Meloy:
We're going to dive into that today. I'm joined by a whole bunch of people that represent the business community of northeast Wisconsin. I'm gonna ask them to introduce themselves before we get started. Chris, I'm gonna start with you.

Chris Hess:
Thanks, Mark. Uh, good afternoon. My name is Chris Hess. I'm president and CEO of Goodwill industries of north central Wisconsin, headquartered in the Fox valley. Uh, really glad to be here today. We operate 28 retail stores and over 20 programs in our communities that impact folks with barriers to employment. Really glad to be here.

Mark Meloy:
Thanks, Chris. Susan?

Susan Finco:
Thanks, Mark. I'm Susan Finco, with Leonard and Finco Public Relations. We represent a wide variety of businesses, but have a lot that are in the manufacturing, business services, healthcare, and governmental, uh, industry sectors. So we get a broad range of experience, uh, dealing with those various, uh, industries. And then I am also serving on the executive of the Green Bay Packers.

Mark Meloy:
Good. Mark?

Mark Kaiser:
Hi, I'm Mark [Kaiser 00:02:08]. I'm the president and CEO of Lindquist Machine Corporation up in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Uh, we build custom equipment, and we build it in a couple different markets. Uh, our big ones are our food processing and packaging, uh, the nuclear market, the paper market, and the converting market.

Mark Meloy:
Thanks. Nancy?

Nancy Johnshoy:
Uh, my name is Nancy Johnshoy. I am a portfolio manager and market strategist for First Business Wealth Management Group.

Mark Meloy:
Thanks, Nancy. And rick?

Rick Hearden:
Thanks, Mark. My name's Rick Hearden. I'm the president of First Business Bank northeast market, and, uh, happy to be here with you today.

Mark Meloy:
Thanks. We're gonna get started, and Nancy's gonna set the tone as she provides her thoughts and summary comments about this year's combined survey results that cover all the banking regions of First Business Bank, but also specifically focused on northeast Wisconsin, one of the reasons we're here today.

Mark Meloy:
And after that, we're gonna roll into a conversation and reaction from our panelists of what they've heard and what they have seen, an early version of our economic survey. So Nancy, we're gonna kick it off. In terms of the overall results across the footprint, what was the general tone for the results?

Nancy Johnshoy:
Well, Mark, businesses across all of our markets were clearly impacted by the pandemic. Overall results across all regions were pretty mixed, with about 43% doing worse than they originally projected, 21% about the same, and 36% doing better than originally projected.

Mark Meloy:
As you look at it specifically for north, the northeast Wisconsin region, similar? Different? What was your reaction to that?

Nancy Johnshoy:
Well, a- as in past years, our northeast region respondents were pretty heavily weighted towards manufacturing. And this year, also larger employers with more than 75 employees. So despite all the challenges that we had in 2020, 38% of our respondents actually saw increases in both sales and profitability.About a similar percentage saw declines versus expectations for sales and profits.

Nancy Johnshoy:
A little more than half, 56% kept their headcount about the same, and 50% reported that they increased wages in 2020. So bottom line is that 36% exceeded overall businesses performance, actually an increase over 29% last year. And 43% did worse than they'd anticipated, up also from 25% last year.

Mark Meloy:
So, um, with both out-performers and under-performers in 2020, what are our key takeaways? Or any thoughts from that, those results?

Nancy Johnshoy:
Sure. I mean, not at all unexpectedly, the pandemic was a primary disrupter in 2020, and the primary cause cited by the 43% that had less favorable results. I mean, companies had to deal with workplace modifications for social distancing, with employees working remotely, absences, and even in some cases temporary shutdowns. But the pandemic also created opportunities for some, and the 36% that reported better than anticipated results often cited the pandemic as a positive factor.

Mark Meloy:
Well, anything about our survey, as you know, is it's really two surveys in one. We look at how companies performed in the current year based upon their expectations, and then we look at the upcoming year, 2021, and what they expect. Um, what are you takeaways from that information?

Nancy Johnshoy:
Well, our- the survey respondents clearly reflected that forecasting in this environment is a challenge. And I think it's important to recognize and put into context when these surveys were completed, which was mid-September to late October, uh, of this year. So during that time, COVID-19 infections are trending higher, the election season is in full swing. And we, as yet, have no promising news on a possible vaccine.

Nancy Johnshoy:
So despite all of that, and despite the fact that six out of 10 respondents think that the pandemic is going to continue to be a disruption through all of 2021, 62% actually expect better overall business performance in the coming year. That's just slightly down from 70% last year. So all things considered, I think it's a pretty strong outlook for next year.

Mark Meloy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Uh, economic data, it's very fluid, and as we continue to recover from the effects of the pandemic, in brief, what are we gonna see right now that will impact 2021?

Nancy Johnshoy:
Well, we are continuing to see strong improvement and results in many areas of the economy, including manufacturing, housing, consumer spending and employment. Unemployment, nationally, has improved to 6.9% from its peak of 14.7 in April. Now state-specific data lags a little bit, but the September data for Wisconsin indicates that, like normal, our, uh, unemployment rate is actually a little lower than the national average at 5.4.

Mark Meloy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nancy Johnshoy:
So on into 2021, the economy continues to rebound, although we're likely to see the pace of that recovery slow somewhat.

Mark Meloy:
Okay, great. I'm gonna turn to the panelists now, and ask that they provide their thoughts on summary comments that Nancy's provided, and their initial, uh, peek at the 2021 survey. So, Chris, I'll start with you. What are you reactions on what Nancy just said about 2020 performance?

Chris Hess:
Yeah, Nancy's comments ring real true to what our experience was. Um, operating retail stores that were initially deemed, um, not essential, we were actually one of the businesses, from a retail standpoint, that were closed down for about 10 weeks. So being closed for 10 weeks, it is very difficult to make up what your annual budget projection and revenue was.

Chris Hess:
We, our business, is actually going to break even, even though we missed about two and half months of revenue. So, you know, comments on hitting budget, or exceeding budget make sense, especially for people in our segment that were deemed essential that kept going. Uh, we did have a lot of pent up demand, so almost revenge buying, if you will, when people were allowed to come back to the store. So that [inaudible 00:09:22].

Mark Meloy:
Other comments? Susan?

Susan Finco:
Well, what I think what is interesting about this whole past year, and with some businesses doing well, others doing not so well, the one thing I would say we saw across the board with all clients was that for the past year or so, the lack of talent, the lack of available skilled talent was a primary concern that continued up until late summer.

Susan Finco:
And now with the resurgence of COVID, what we're seeing is the lack of staff. The number of staff people out because of COVID that are quarantined, um, that have to isolate. That's having a big impact on a lot of the larger employers. Uh, when you have 100, 200 people out any given day, it's really disrupting their business.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah, that's a great point. Mark, how about you?

Mark Kaiser:
You know, our, I- I think our business pretty much followed what Nancy shared. We started out the year very strong, then COVID hit, and it, and being in the capital equipment business, it's cyclical to begin with, but once that hit, our customers stopped buying it.

Mark Kaiser:
So for two months, our new orders were really low. Uh, and then as we adjusted to COVID, then it came back reasonably good for a couple months, and then the last three months have been spectacular. And it's mostly because the market's pivoted. So our customers started b- make- making face mask machines. They started making gown machines. Uh, they started, uh, needing more capacity for air filters.

Mark Kaiser:
All COVID-related markets, and that just turned us right around again. And so what was our problem, which was couldn't find talent, is now our problem again, is no, we can't find talent. So it, it just was all condensed in a very short period of time. I will also say that the other thing that's hurting us is, uh, people, uh, our associates, we've only had one case, one individual get COVID here.

Mark Kaiser:
Uh, but family members, uh, get it, and then they have to stay home 'cause they gotta, and then they get it when they get home. And so we've had a lot of, uh, our associates are off for two weeks at a crack. And probably at the worst, it was maybe seven or eight at the same time. That's very significant trying to get work done on time, and meet deliveries. It's very challenging. And so that's really been a problem-

Mark Meloy:
Yeah.

Mark Kaiser:
In all honesty, is trying to manage that.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah. Interesting. Rick, I'm gonna ask you about your thoughts.

Rick Hearden:
Well, mark, as you know, we see, uh, businesses of all kind. Man- manufacturers, uh, wholesalers, uh, transportation. There's certain segments of the, uh, o- of the market that are, is, are really struggling. Obviously hospitality is struggling. Um, some retial is struggling. Restaurants, fast food's doing great (laughing).

Rick Hearden:
But, uh, overall, the results from the survey really reflect what we're seeing from our clients, and that is we've got a, a good percentage of clients that are doing better than they expected. We've got a good percentage that are kind of where they expected. And some are struggling.

Rick Hearden:
Um, and, uh, so I think it does really reflect what's happening out there in the market. Fortunately, northeastern Wisconsin is heavy in manufacturing, heavy in, in, uh, warehousing, heavy in transportation. And those areas seem to continue to do very well overall, so.

Susan Finco:
It's almost, I- I- I'd just like to jump in and say it's almost like a tale of two economies. You have this group of businesses and industry sectors that are doing great, and then you have this other group that it's absolutely miserable for them. And it's so far apart, something that I don't think any of us have ever seen before.

Rick Hearden:
Right.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah. I totally agree with that. I've, I've called it a barbell economy. Nancy and I were talking about it the other day, and she labeled it something else. Nancy, you wanna, you wanna go there?

Nancy Johnshoy:
K-shaped. A K-shaped recovery.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah. Yeah, it, it really is-

Nancy Johnshoy:
'Cause there's definitely two, two different paths.

Mark Meloy:
Yep. It really is. I'm gonna ask another question for the group. Um, what trends are you noticing in your industries? And Susan, I know you work with a bunch of different industries, but is there any, any, um... You know, Mark talked about pivoting, about some of the customers changing what they do, which I think is a great, was a great segue into this part of the conversation. But are there things that, um, any trends that you're seeing?

Susan Finco:
I do think businesses have become more nimble because they've had to, and really as Mark was saying about pivoting to new forms of business, how do we adapt? How do we succeed? Even the restaurants that we see that are hanging in there pivoted with how they serve their customers.

Susan Finco:
Um, I know I can share in our industry, being in public relations when it first hit, um, we had clients just bailing within a few weeks, we had some of them coming back, but we had a whole new batch come back, come in. Because it offered new opportunities for us. We were able to pivot in time. I think for others, maybe there wasn't a place for them to pivot to.

Mark Meloy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris, thoughts from you?

Chris Hess:
Yeah, I think, uh, you know, businesses became real nimble really, really quick for survival purposes. The other thing that was interesting was the emphasis on safety. So, uh, you know, we've all run safe businesses in the past, but it became paramount that you message how safe it is for consumers to visit your business.

Chris Hess:
And you had to do that almost overnight, right? So, um, there weren't, you know, plexiglass shields and sneeze guards in retailers before. There weren't stickers on the floor telling you to be six feet apart. And there was certainly cleaning that had been going on, and our Goodwill, we prided ourselves on having safe, clean stores.

Chris Hess:
But it became necessary to really message around how often you were cleaning, uh, you know, high touch surfaces, your mobile payment options, the ability to use a pin pad and increase the level of transactions where people didn't have to touch the pin pad. All of that became key points in marketing messages, where if you would've had that as a key point of difference before to message, people would've laughed at you.

Chris Hess:
You know, the other thing that I've noticed is the consumer confidence. Although businesses are doing well in manufacturing, I think we're still, the jury is still out on how consumers are gonna come back and behave after, or, you know, as the pandemic winds down, or levels off. We estimate 20-25% of our customer base is basically on the sidelines right now.

Chris Hess:
The ones that are participating, are participating at a higher level, so their transaction values are making up for those that are on the sideline. But I can totally understand why businesses are optimistic for 2021, because for us, if people just simply get off the sidelines and start participating the same way before, and we believe they will, that, there's some serious upside for our, our business, and business like us.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah, good point. Mark, thoughts?

Mark Kaiser:
I think one of the things that, that people might not realize is, in, in our business, and in the capital equipment business particularly, is the amount of money that the federal government spent and subsidized to companies to make PPE is astounding. I mean, the numbers are astounding.

Mark Kaiser:
And I think we certainly, um, felt the benefit of that. So we're very fortunate being in the right place at the right time. I'd like to think it was because I was really smart. That's obviously not the case at all. And I think it's back to, I don't know if Susan or Nancy said it, some companies, they're, they just couldn't pivot, because there was no opportunity to pivot.

Mark Kaiser:
But the government, one of my fears is that we, we got this from [inaudible 00:17:50] from a manufacturing perspective, we go this big bump, but I don't know that it's sustainable. I mean, I think this is gonna go on for a while. I think it's gonna go on well into 20, uh, 21, but it's not gonna last forever. And so we're gonna have to still figure out how to do businesses without basically having the federal government subsidize a lot of this.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah.

Mark Kaiser:
That wor- that keeps me up at night, a little bit.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah. You know, we started, uh, 2016, I think we had about $18 trillion in national debt, and we have, and it took us 250 years almost to get to that point. And in the last four years, we've spent another, we've borrowed another $10 trillion. Now, a whole chunk of it is related to exactly what you're talking about, is emergency spending that's occurred in the last six months.

Mark Meloy:
But yeah, it's, it is, it's amazing how much money. Okay. But businesses, I think, are in a way different spot today, too. There's still a lot of, of scars form the great recession. So businesses are what, much more well capitalized, tend to have more liquidity, have paid debt down faster, so they were, I mean, getting into something like this, the nimbleness was, was definitely there that I didn't think existed very much, or very well, in 2008, 2009. Rick, how about your thoughts?

Rick Hearden:
You know, obviously it's had a huge impact on the banking industry, the pandemic has. Uh, I think, uh, First Business as a bank has done an outstanding job of, of dealing with the, with the circumstances. But it's put us in a, in a different position than we expected to be in at this time of the year. Uh, you know, at the beginning of the year, we were expecting rates to go up, and in all of a sudden in March, rates plummeted, right?

Rick Hearden:
And then we had to deal with the SVA PPE program, which has totally changed our balance sheet. Um, fortunately, we did a good job, uh, taking care of our clients, and bringing in new business during that, during that period of time. But all of that money coming into, coming into those businesses impacted us in a number of ways.

Rick Hearden:
Our deposits are way up. Our loans are, are down because people came in, businesses came into money and were able to pay down their lines of credit, and don't need to borrow as much. So, uh, fortunately, here in northeastern Wisconsin, we've done a pretty darn good job of bringing in new business during this, during this period of time. Um, uh, Mark, thank you for investing in technology, because I think that that's helped us a lot.

Rick Hearden:
We've been able to do a lot of business from home, uh, because for a long period of time, most of our employees were working from home. So it's been an interesting time. Um, we're optimistic. Uh, most of our businesses that we deal with are optimistic, and, uh, we think 2021 is gonna be a good year for us. Mark, I agree with you. I think beyond that, there's a lot of question marks, uh, where this is gonna go.

Mark Meloy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I think this are, those are really good points. Chris, I don't wanna lost the point you made, too, about safety, and, um, employees, clients and employees' greater focus on safety, personal safety and things like that. And I, and I hear it just consistently wherever we go, um, whether it's clients, whether it's employees that have worked every single day that we've been open for the last six months. It is, it's high on everyone's mind, and that is not something that's gonna go away.

Chris Hess:
No, I, I think, I think it'll continue. And, you know, even as we see COVID cases spike here in Wisconsin, I know a lot of you know my fellow business leaders are trying to prove to the state that we and walk and chew gum at the same time. We can conduct business, and we can do it safely.

Chris Hess:
So we're, we're really, really trying to prove to customers, to the state, and to each other that being safe and conducting business during this kind of environment is possible. And, you know, we've been fortunate. We, we've had a masking policy before there was a masking mandate. In our 1,300 employees, we have an infection rate of under 2%, and none of the cases have been community spread from our employees.

Chris Hess:
So I think our numbers, if the state had the numbers, they would feel differently about, you know, looking at ratcheting down, or looking at other businesses. So I think the pressure on businesses to be responsible, to take care of their employees, and the customers that visit their shops are, are gonna continue well into 2021.

Mark Meloy:
Good. Okay, I'm gonna ask a question for the panel. Was there anything that surprised you in the data that, that Nancy shared. Nancy, I'm gonna start with you. What, what surprised you the most about that information?

Nancy Johnshoy:
I think what surprised me the most was the level of optimism given the period of time when this was filled out. I, I was frankly shocked at, at the optimistic tone and the outlook for 2021, even though companies clearly anticipate that COVID's gonna remain around for most of 2021. That was the prevailing opinion.

Nancy Johnshoy:
But I think maybe, um, a sort of a lockdown 2.0 is thought to be less damaging to the economy, and that we've sort of, as you say, we've pivoted, and, and adjusted to it, but I was still very surprised at how optimistic companies are. Surprised and pleased.

Mark Meloy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sure. Mark, how about you?

Mark Kaiser:
I don't think I was as surprised as Nancy. I was really pleased to see it, uh, the optimism, but I think that is part of, and particularly up here in the northeast Wisconsin. As Rick said, it's very heavy manufacturing based and, and that we were able to ride this I think a little more successfully than other markets, obviously, you know, as compared to the hospitality, or the consumer products ones.

Mark Kaiser:
And so I'm, I'm really encouraged by that, because it was, it was stilL very difficult to go through, and it still costs us a lot of money. And I think the thing that people don't realize is with the social distancing you'd have to do and the wearing masks internally, which is all the right things to do, it really does dampen your ability to innovate and collaborate, because you don't want them to talk to each other. And that's what drives it, right?

Mark Meloy:
Yeah.

Mark Kaiser:
So, you've kind of got these things working against each other, and, and so you don't make the progress you'd like to make in some areas, but, but you understand why. Uh, but there is still a lot of... I'm very optimistic about our business, and about where we're going from a manufacturing perspective.

Mark Kaiser:
Now, that's all gonna get tied to consumer spending in the end run, and as Chris, I think it was Chris, said before, we're just not sure where that's all gonna shake out yet, and that'll be the, that'll be the determining factor, I think for us in 2020, end of 2021, into 2022.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah. Susan?

Susan Finco:
I think the optimism, really, was driven on two different levels. Those businesses that pivoted and are doing really well are optimistic that they can keep doing well. But I also think, and there's a few businesses that are in the hospitality industry that we work with that they're optimistic despite the bad year, despite less revenue, less profit, because they see an end in sight.

Susan Finco:
They've learned to coexist as much as they can with the COVID thing, but they're all optimistic about a vaccine being around the corner, um, thinking by the first quarter of 2021, things are gonna start turning around. And their belief is wow, Katy bar the doors once this thing is almost over, because people want to get out there. Everyone's tired of being at home. So I was pleased to see that, that optimism reflected.i wasn't sure it would be, but I think that's what's driving it.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah, good point. Rick, anything surprise you?

Rick Hearden:
I think initially, I, I agree with Nancy. I was a little bit surprised about all the optimism, but then I started thinking about you know, we- we've been living with this now for seven months. We've learned how to cope with it. Um, it, it, it seems like there's going to be brighter days ahead, and, um, and, and as Mark said, you know, Wisconsin, and, and northeast Wisconsin in particular, we tend to be, we tend to be pretty optimistic people.

Rick Hearden:
And, uh, you know, to steal, to steal, uh, some words from my 91 year old dad, um, in, in, uh, in May, I found out he was out playing golf with my, with my brother in law. And I asked him, I said, "Dad, aren't you, aren't you afraid of the virus?" And he said, "Well, sure I am, but I'm 91 years old. I'm gonna die from something, but I'm not gonna stop living."

Rick Hearden:
And I think that's how, a lot of people feel that way. We, we can deal with this, but we can keep on living. We just have to find different ways to do it. And, and I think that, that brings on a lot of the optimism.

Mark Meloy:
Chris, anything you have to add, in terms of surprises?

Chris Hess:
Yeah, I guess, uh, it's gonna be really hard to surprise me, Mark, because it's 2020 and we've been through a lot. So I don't get surprised very often anymore. Uh, but one of the things that stood out, I guess, is that the war on talent will continue. I don't think that there's going to be a ceasefire any time soon.

Chris Hess:
Companies are gonna be competing for resources in leadership, um, as we move into a new normal. So, you know, what really stands out whether, you know, companies have moved more virtual, or they've redesigned their, their workflows, it takes different talent. And being in a business where we train people for jobs, uh, for a living, um, we are, we've got a really keen eye on, you know, what that could mean for the people that we serve.

Chris Hess:
We think it means more digital skills. Nobody knew how to use Zoom, um, really before this, and now people, that's just a normal requirement for the job. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So what really stood out to me is that, you know, talent and the importance of attracting and retaining talent for businesses will continue well into the future.

Susan Finco:
And I think that's gonna drive the wages up again. We already have seen that. I think that's gonna continue.

Mark Kaiser:
I- I- it's, [inaudible 00:28:38] it's accelerating. The, the way [crosstalk 00:28:41].

Mark Meloy:
[inaudible 00:28:41] yeah.

Mark Kaiser:
Yeah. For sure.

Mark Meloy:
Anything not in the results that you expected that you might see? Chris, I'll go back to you to start.

Chris Hess:
I thought I would see a few more businesses impacted. Um, because going back into, uh, you know, March and April, and when you look at the traffic patterns, and maybe it's just because we're in retail, but you look at the traffic patterns and then doors that were open that were then shuttered for, for 10 weeks, it's pretty remarkable when you think about it that the businesses bounced back.

Chris Hess:
And we have, you know, well over half, uh, saying that they were, you know, either after, or beating plans. So I think that that's good. Um, I wasn't really expecting that. We did a lot of heavy lifting just to kind of get back to even, and I'm suspecting a lot of companies did that as well. So that's really a pleasant surprise that people are optimistic, and able to still achieve results like that.

Mark Meloy:
Rick?

Rick Hearden:
Well, like I, like I said before, um, I, I, I, I agree with Chris, that I thought there would be more of an impact to more businesses. Um, you know, when you look at hospitality, you know the hotel business, uh, entertainment. You know, I'm on, I'm on the board of a local PAC that's been shut down since March. Uh, you know, you don't have ticket revenue coming it.

Rick Hearden:
It's, it's pretty diff- difficult to operate. Um, so there are still businesses out there struggling, but it doesn't seem as widespread as everybody anticipated it would be. And, uh, and maybe it was because of the influx of dollars back into the economy. Back into businesses, small businesses, medium sized businesses that has, that has allowed us to, to, to come out of this quicker than we expected.

Mark Meloy:
Good. Susan? Any thoughts?

Susan Finco:
I would've expected a little bit more about the impacts of remote work. Um, I think one of the things we're seeing in the businesses we serve, we hear them talk a lot about how difficult it is to cultivate new business now. It's fine doing the remote thing with the existing clients, because the relationship is there. I just had a long discussion today with a large company that they're really struggling with that.

Susan Finco:
How do you get your foot in the door, get them to talk to you when they don't want to meet face to face. Um, and people are getting Zoomed out, videoed out, and it, that's a challenge. So I'm surprised more didn't talk about the impact of all the remote work on their workforce, and on their business.

Mark Meloy:
That's a great point. Mark, how about you?

Mark Kaiser:
I, I would, I would jump on top of that and say the effect of this on business development efforts, just business development efforts in general. Trying, trying to attract new customers, trying to, um, really effectively get your value proposition across, it's, it's very difficult to do that over Zoom. I mean, it's just not the same. It's the, you, you lose the relationship piece.

Mark Kaiser:
Um, I, I've been having so many of these a day with potential customers, and at the end of, after I get done, I just don't feel like I've been able to get my story across, uh, very well. Um, whereas when I'm sitting in their office and they can't run away from me, you know, it's... You just feel like you got a better shot at this. So I, I would've thought I would've heard more of concern on that end, I really did. Based on my experiences.

Susan Finco:
And I don't know if that's because people are just focused on let's keep going, generating the revenue. Let's keep things rolling. But it is starting to come out more and more about the businesses development angle, you know. And as I see you sitting there, Mark. For instance, you know, doing, a meeting with you in person if we didn't know each other, and I get an appointment with you, I see all those photos on your desk.

Mark Kaiser:
Yep.

Susan Finco:
You'd be, I would be zeroed in on those saying, "Oh, are those are you grandkids? Your kids? Your..." It's that relationship building that when you're doing this virtually, it's so difficult to establish a good connection.

Mark Kaiser:
Yep, it is. I agree.

Mark Meloy:
Yeah. Great, great point. Great point. Well, we've run out of time, and I want to thank all of our guests today for sharing their thoughts and experiences with our audience today. This was a great conversation. And to all of you as our audience, thanks for listening to our conversation.

Mark Meloy:
I want to remind you that the full 2021 survey can be found at our website. We hope you found it, this conversation today helpful and applicable to your company, as well as in your planning for 2021. Let us know if there are other topics you'd like us to talk about, and thank you for joining us on the First Business Bank podcast.

Speaker 1:
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